[Mnet-devel] newbie mnet questions...

[seberino at spawar.navy.mil]

Zooko

Thanks for your email and info.  My interest in anonymous
P2P is not related to my day job for the Navy... rather I'm
just a fan of Python, open source and freedom.  I think
an anonymous P2P system is a useful & interesting project.

I was happy to hear about so many nice anonymous P2P projects
in addition to Freenet.  Circle and GNUnet look very interesting
in addition to Mnet.

I think I would tend to agree with you that anonymity is
probably best solved at a separate layer that doesn't
muck up other architectural aspects.

Why does Freenet get all the press if Circle and GNUnet perform
essentially the same service???  How mature are Circle and GNUnet
and easy to pick up relative to Mnet???  I would imagine we
want the best one to get better and take over the world to avoid
duplication of effort.  Do any of these other P2Ps have design
flaws like Freenet??  Which is the winner is the best design, best
documentation category???

Thanks again,

Chris



On Sun, Jul 11, 2004 at 11:19:48AM -0300, Zooko wrote:
> >1. There are so many P2P algorithms, can you convince
> >me that Mnet is the one I should focus on??  Python
> >is my first love so that is one positive already.
> >Kademlia, Freenet, eMule, BitTorrent are other potential
> >P2P systems one could possibly add anonymity too.
> >Please convince me I should focus on Mnet instead.
>
> I'm not sure that you should focus on Mnet, but I'll tell you what I
> know.
>
> The things you list above are in different categories.
>
> Kademlia is a DHT, which is really just one component of a system
> rather than a complete system in itself.  Kademlia is used in eMule,
> which is a file-sharing application.  BitTorrent is "p2p ftp" -- it is
> a file transfer protocol that transfers a file from a single, central
> server, to a potentially large number of clients.  Freenet is a
> decentralized storage system, so it is the only one you listed that is
> in the same category as Mnet.
>
> Two other open source systems that you might be interested in are The
> Circle (written in Python) and GNUnet (written in C).
>
> The Circle:
> http://thecircle.org.au/
>
> GNUnet
> http://www.ovmj.org/GNUnet/
>
> All four of Freenet, The Circle, GNUnet, and Mnet are several years old
> and have active developer communities.  (Note: the Mnet developers have
> been passive for the last two months, but I expect that to change.)
>
>
> >2. I was told Freenet is stalled because it's algorithm
> >doesn't really work.
>
> Personally, I think that the basic Freenet concept of achieving
> anonymity by combining forwarding with routing (with the filesystem) is
> flawed.  In my opinion, even if Freenet's latest design (NGrouting with
> erasure coding) can be made to perform well, the anonymity achieved
> will still be minimal -- i.e. it will provide anonymity only against
> very limited attackers.
>
> Mnet does not attempt to provide anonymity.  As I've said, I think it
> would be a mistake to attempt to do that in the same layer as routing
> and the filesystem.  It could be provided in a lower layer in one of
> two ways:
>
> 1.  The "one-hop privacy" approach, which means implementing an
> anonymous routing system in EGTP (Mnet's communications layer).
>
> 2.  Using an anonymous routing system that someone else has developed,
> such as MixMinion or Tor:
>
> MixMinion:
> http://www.mixminion.net/
>
> Tor:
> http://www.freehaven.net/tor/
>
> I favor the latter approach.  MixMinion is my favorite, as it is
> written in Python and provides stronger anonymity than Tor does (at a
> cost in performance and complication...)
>
>
> >  I'm a little scared because Mnet
> >also says their algorithm is an example of "emergent
> >behavior".  This to me hints of complicated artificial
> >intelligence ideas that aren't really practical.  I could
> >be wrong.  I think Kademlia looks like it's algorithm is
> >solid so I wonder why Mnet is better and worth my time.
> >I want to be convinced.
>
> The design of Mnet v0.7 is simpler than that of Mnet v0.6.  I described
> it in 4 minutes at PET workshop:
>
> http://lists.mnetproject.org/pipermail/mnet-devel/2004-May/003407.html
>
>
> >3. Is it easy to pick up??? Easy docs and commented code, etc.?
>
> We have tried to make it easy to pick up.  We've spent a lot of effort
> cleaning and documenting the source code, etc.  Please try to pick it
> up, and post to this list about anything which slows you down.  I.e.,
> please post to the list if the web pages or documentation are
> incomplete or incorrect, etc.
>
>
> >Christian Seberino, Ph.D.
> >SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego
>
> Are you investigating anonymous decentralized storage systems as part
> of your work at SPAWAR?
>
> Regards,
>
> Zooko
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Mnet-devel at lists.mnetproject.org
> http://lists.mnetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/mnet-devel
>

--
Chris

_______________________________________

Christian Seberino, Ph.D.
SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego
Code 2872
49258 Mills Street, Room 158
San Diego, CA 92152-5385
U.S.A.

Phone: (619) 553-9973
Fax  : (619) 553-6521
Email: seberino at spawar.navy.mil
_______________________________________